The Catholic Archbishop of Durban, Wilfrid Fox Napier, has described paedophilia as a psychological illness, not a criminal condition". The South African cardinal told the BBC that people who were themselves abused as children and then abused others needed to be examined by doctors. In an interview with the Stephen Nolan programme on BBC Radio 5 live, Cardinal Napier referred to paedophilia as "a psychological condition, a disorder". "What do you do with disorders? You've got to try and put them right. If I - as a normal being - choose to break the law, knowing that I'm breaking the law, then I think I need to be punished." He said he knew at least two priests, who became paedophiles after themselves being abused as children. "Now don't tell me that those people are criminally responsible like somebody who chooses to do something like that. I don't think you can really take the position and say that person deserves to be punished. He was himself damaged." Marie Collins, who is a victim of abuse, told the BBC: "I think it is appalling that we have a cardinal, a man at this level in the church that can still hold these views. He is totally ignoring the child."